As an entrepreneur I’ve often had important conversations with clients and my mentors and coaches that I wished I recorded. Thankfully, living in the 21st century we have this technology! I installed the Automatic Call Recorder app on my phone that records all of my conversations, and I get to keep the ones I really care about. Most of the time there’s nothing worth keeping, but every once in a while I have a conversation that causes me to click the “Save” button.
This was a call I received today from an gentleman with a blocked number who identified himself as “Nelson”. He apparently had some pretty alarming issues with the biblical teaching of the trinity, and appears to hold to a view that demeans the deity of Jesus, claiming that Jesus is a created being (which is the view that Jehovah’s Witnesses teach). Here is our “conversation” (I put “quotation marks” because he apparently wanted to yell and argue, rather than have a dialogue). Enjoy!
This conversation occurred while I was driving (don’t worry, I had my hands-free activated) to a lunch date with my oldest son. I misstated a scripture reference by saying “John 7” when in actuality, the verse is John 12:41 “Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke of him…” (speaking of Jesus… when we know that Isaiah 6 is the chapter where he saw the glory of God).
Colossians 1:15 – “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.” (the NLT translates it as “Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation..”) We use this as a text to prove the deity of Jesus… this gentleman used it to say Jesus was created because He is “first born” (as in “first created”). As we can see from nearly all English translations, this verse is referring to a title of “first born” not a chronological assignment of creation.
I was trying to prove the point (but failed to do so due to the incessant interruptions) that “first born” is a title of preeminence consistent in the bible, not necessarily order of chronology and certainly not meaning “created”. Examples include Psalm 89:27 referring to David as being “appointed” as God’s firstborn, then gives the context of what firstborn means by saying “the most exalted of the kings of the earth”… and Exodus 4:22 where God says “Israel is my firstborn son”. Neither David, nor Israel were firstborn in any sense of chronology or genealogy – they are simply appointed with the title of firstborn, meaning “most exalted” or “preeminent”.
Nelson asked for one scripture that talks about Jesus being God… off the top of my head I gave three:
- John 1
- John 12:41
- 1 John 5:19-20
Needless to say, this lead to a good conversation over lunch with my son.